If you’re just here for recipes, you can click away now. This post is just going to be about ingredients and technique. And whether I’m cheating or not.
Yesterday I posted my latest pizza crust recipe. In it, I confirmed my idea from the last time I made it that high gluten flour — or “bread flour” — makes a huge difference in the texture of the dough. Gluten is a protein that forms long strands in the dough, trapping gas from the yeast, leading to higher rising, and also producing a chewier texture.
Now this was the third time I’ve posted about making pizza crust. (The other time was actually for calzones, but it was the same recipe.) And I’ve made bread several other times with all-purpose flour, up until my first try with bread flour when I made the rye bread.
So while I’m not an expert, I think I’m qualified to say whether the bread flour makes a difference in the texture of the dough. But apparently, I’m just cheating. I got this comment on the pizza crust recipe:
“baking” flour or “high gluten” flour are crutches. sufficient kneading will accomplish the same result
if you’re taking the time to cook from scratch, doesn’t your food deserve the attention of a full, and proper knead?
Let me start by admitting that I don’t know anything about the person who wrote this. They may actually be a world-class baker, and my feeble attempts are offending their sensibilities. But all I have to go on is what’s in the comment. So let’s see what I can learn from it?
First, is “baking” flour the same as “bread flour”, or is it “cake flour”? Because cake flour is actually lower in gluten. It is used when you want a crumbly texture, instead of the chewiness of bread. That can’t be what my commenter meant, can it?
Okay, so how about calling high gluten flour a crutch? Kneading is required to develop the gluten in flour. However, all-purpose flour simply doesn’t have as much gluten as … well, high gluten flour. Seems kind of obvious, even if you haven’t researched it.
So can you achieve the same texture by sufficient kneading of all-purpose flour to match the texture of high gluten flour? Well, excessive kneading will eventually make the dough tough, regardless of what kind of flour you started with. So there is some point at which you have developed all the gluten you can, and any more kneading will be counter-productive. If you go to this point with both all-purpose and high gluten flour, the high gluten will have — can you guess? — that’s right, more gluten!
Maybe after explaining how “full, and proper” kneading can turn one kind of flour into another kind of flour, my commenter can explain how you can replace butter in recipes with milk. After all, they’re both dairy products. Using “high fat milk” (yes, butter) is cheating, after all.
Or maybe we’ll learn that garlic, onions, and tulip bulbs are interchangeable in recipes. They are all plant bulbs, you know.
Am I overreacting? Possibly. But I take exception to the comment, “if you’re taking the time to cook from scratch, doesn’t your food deserve the attention.” I make my own bread crumbs. I make my own pasta. I make my own mayonnaise for Pete’s sake! I give it the attention it deserves.
If you want to tell me I’m cheating because I use an immersion blender for the mayo instead of doing it by hand, fine. I’ll admit I’m using a shortcut, and you could get the same result by hand. Then I’ll keep using the blender.
But tell me that you can turn one kind of flour into another kind by giving it the attention it deserves? That’s just being disagreeable. And might I suggest, if you think I don’t give food the attention it deserves, that you don’t waste any more of your valuable time reading my blog.
Thanks to everyone else who has commented on my ongoing learning experience with yeast breads. I truly appreciate every constructive suggestion, which has helped me get to where I’m finally happy with what I’m making. I’m sorry all of you had to see this. I’ll be back tomorrow with … hmm, let’s see … how about a bread recipe?
Want more like this? For more recipes like this, that you can hold right in your hands, and write on, take notes, tear pages out if you want (Gosh, you're tough on books, aren't you?) you might be interested in How To Cook Like Your Grandmother, 2nd edition, Illustrated. Or to learn your way around the kitchen, check out Starting From Scratch: The Owner's Manual for Your Kitchen.
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26 Comments
I find it always dissapointing when people leave negative feedback like that. Those people probably stumbled on your page and had to have their piece of mind here.
Anybody who reads your blog know that you care about making your food, and spend a lot of time on it. I know you do anyways.
I haven’t tried your bread recipes yet, but I’ve done 3 recipes on this blog and they have been a huge success to my tastebuds and to my boyfriend and friends.
So, Drew, thank you for keeping up this blog.
Drew, you’re wonderful! That sad comment is unfortunately a mark of your continued success. The more the masses love you (we do!) the more certain individuals feel the need to try to cut you down. Regardless of how wonderful a loaf of bread is, I wouldn’t want to eat one made by someone who forgot to add the love! That IS what your Grandmother added, hehe. I’ve never heard anyone say “Boy My Grandmother was a crotchety whippersnapper, but BOY did she make great bread!” LOL Nope, love is exactly what you give your food my friend! After all, you take the time to send all of us, your fans hehe, your thoughts and techniques every few days! Wow. You know, you have changed the way I feel about cooking. I am a baker, at heart who has always been intimidated by main courses. I can follow a recipe like a pro but always have felt inadequate because I couldn’t cook something delicious up without the recipe to coddle me. Just like you said about the Food Network! I always had just enough to need more recipes. YOU took me past that when you taught me methods I could use across the board to make my own delicious unique recipes. You are awesome, and apparently creating quite a stir—so congratulations! Don’t hate Drew because he’s fabulous.
Anyone who bakes bread, pastries or whatnots KNOWS there is a difference in flours. The difference comes from the type of wheat(s) used to make the flours as well as how fine they may or may not be ground.
For someone to say that you don’t care about the food you make because you “didn’t take the time to knead it properly” doesn’t understand what your blog is about. That is HIS/HER problem. Don’t let them get to you. You are doing a great service to your readers – bringing back REAL food to kitchens! Thanks!
Note to Rude Commenting Person: the lower the protein content of a flour, the more easily you can overknead and end up breaking down the gluten strands. High gluten flour isn’t a crutch; it’s good science.
Keep it up, Drew–love what you’re doing over here!
Drew Man….Keep on doing what you’re doing….Writing a Blog is hard….requires a thick skin that doesn’t come from High Gluten or excessive kneading, it comes from having the guts to share your experiences, and, no matter what you say, you can’t please everybody!
They can have your bread and eat it too….Stay cool in the kitchen…
Chas
Drew Man….Keep on doing what you’re doing….Writing a Blog is hard….requires a thick skin that doesn’t come from High Gluten or excessive kneading, it comes from having the guts to share your experiences, and, no matter what you say, you can’t please everybody!
They can have your bread and eat it too….Stay cool in the kitchen…
Chas
Drew,
I just wanted to Thank You for your blog and to say you are wonderful. I am sorry people feel the need to leave negative comments, or try to bash you for things you have done in your cooking.. I am so glad I stumbled upon your blog. You have certainly taught me a few things… Don’t let the negative people get to you. You have many more people who LOVE what you do. YOU have truly inspired me.
I find this interesting because I recently read a website (http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm) on which a chef tried a multitude of recipes to recreate the pizza from a NY city pizzeria. One of the things he said was that the type of flour didn’t matter as much as the kneading of the dough.
His dough was MUCH more liquid than yours, and his mixer did most of the kneading while it was too wet to hand-knead. This final dough was very wet, but it was also meant to go into a 800-900 degree oven.
Wow! I’m glad I’m not the person who touched That nerve!! Ouch!
You are absolutely correct about your flour… and believe me, I know what happens when you over love your dough!
Keep up your great work, dear. You’re well thought of on this blog!
I’d still show up at your house for dinner, regardless of whether you used regular flour or ::gasp:: high gluten flour.
(like I know what I’m talking about with flour. I’m just happy when I don’t burn something and it comes out kinda edible.)
Hey Drew,
I’m glad you posted this blog. You are allowed to get mad at people who make rude (and quite possibly under-informed) comments on your blog, and I think it’s great that you took the time to address it. If they don’t like your advice, they don’t have to take it. They certainly don’t need to leave what was clearly an incendiary comment designed to get under your skin and make you feel inferior. If they are so smart, they’d have realized a comment like that was not going to make you think, “Hmm, maybe I DID do that wrong,” but rather make you mad and insult you so that you would be more likely to disregard their opinion all together.
I think you are doing an excellent job with this blog, and I look forward to reading it and getting your new recipes and tips. I love that you share your experiences, even the failed ones; it lets us know that we’re all fallible in the kitchen, even the all-mighty blogger with multitudes of adoring fans
So I say keep it up, and if some jerk doesn’t like it, they don’t have to read it (whoa, crazy concept, I know). Some people just have to be right all the time; don’t let them get to you. Keep doing what you’re doing, because there are way more of us who love you than not!
-Tamara
I stood in the flour aisle for a looooooong time trying to figure out what the difference was and if I really needed the bread flour. Thanks for laying it out there. I will go back for the high gluten flour, thank you very much and ahem my dough has been a victim of my overkneading many, many times! My chickens can vouch for it as they’re the ones who get to eat the mistakes. I love your blog and have told many, MANY people about it! Keep up the good work!!
Man, I’m getting all misty-eyed here. (Don’t tell my wife, she thinks I’m all macho and stuff.)
Don’t anybody worry about me feeling inferior, most people who know me would tell you there’s not much danger of that. :-/ But it does feel good for so many people to show their support. Even … no, especially Laura. Because that’s the kind of constructive feedback I love.
Yes, a wood-fired brick oven cooks way hotter than you can do in a home oven. I mentioned in one of my pizza posts that I’ve seen on a blog directions for removing the door lock on your self-cleaning oven, so you could bake pizza on the cleaning cycle. I’m not surprised that the technique, and even the recipe, would have to be completely different.
And by the way, Melissa … love the hairdo in your profile pic. Is that a perm?
Drew – As an Oklahoma farm girl, I find it distressing you don’t grow your own wheat and grind it.
LOL, I’m afraid to tell you I toss your recipe in my bread machine and take it out after it rises. Works for me.
You’re terrific and keep doing what you’re doing.
I don’t think you are overreacting, I think the commentor was being a snot.
i am SO glad you answered that mean-spirited commenter. i read your blog this morning and saw his/her comment and became angry! why leave a comment like that? because some people are just mean and nasty and haughty and arrogant and know-it-alls and NO ONE likes them.
i appreciate your time, effort and knowledge of the kitchen, and the fact that you SHARE your experiences with all of us is very generous and kind.
thank you Drew.
Drew,
Your blog has inspired and open my eyes on a lot of different things about food and ingredients. I am taking steps to change my family’s eating habits (baby steps mind you). It is something I have always wanted to do but I was not sure how to go about it. You take the time to break everything down and explain it in such a way that makes it possible for me to follow and understand. For that I thank you and say keep up the good work your efforts are very much appreciated!
Oh I wish this was an April Fool’s joke! Seriously, flours and breads are persnickity things and we each find what works best — technique, product, recipe, whatever! It’s all voodoo, sometimes, when you consider all the things that affect outcome. There’s the growing of the grain, the harvesting and grinding, transportation, storage, age when it’s used, humidity, other ingredients, temperature of the oven, baking time, and whether you slather the end result with butter and jelly or pizza sauce!
So, here’s a high-ho PBTHHHHHT to the crab who could type.
Drew, what you share with us, from your heart, means so much more than mere kitchen science. You know your stuff and what matters is you’re making good food in a loving manner for your family. And teaching us how to do the same. Please keep up the great work!
Re the rude dude: #%&* 'em.
About flour: the different flour types are not only different strains, but also grown at different times. High-gluten flour is from winter-raised wheat. You can also add gluten as a seperate ingrediant (invaluable in bread machines, I've found). Choose wisely, there are lots of imposters! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_improver
Next up: check out levains, bigas, sponges and poolishes (sp?) here's a great place to read up on the science behind the art:
http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/discussions/artisanal_topics.htm
http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/breads/sourdough_12_20/sourdough_12_20.htm
They kind of require you to be baking bread every single freakin day but, hey, they really cut down on the hard work and GREATLY IMPROVE THE TASTE. Nothing like a hundred-year-old-levain! I live in the SF Bay Area and there are some old old bakeries that don't even need starters, the air and walls are saturated with yeast. But I've been able to come close with a poolish. And then had to give away 2/3 of a loaf every day! Argh!
And by the way? I ALWAYS USED HIGH GLUTEN FLOUR THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
– thpt
Hm. cut-off links. Here, because you sound like the kind of cool dude who likes to read fun stuff and darn if you don’t make excellent food to boot!
Bedtime reading for cool dudes:
http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/
discussions/
artisanal_topics.htm
http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/
breads/sourdough_12_20/
sourdough_12_20.htm
Way to go, Drew. People who leave comments like that are lonely, bitter people, looking for a fight. You took the high road and provided a reasoned and articulate response. Don’t sweat this crap. Your blog is amazing and I’ve already learned so much from you, and been inspired to cook at home far more often than I do!! Thanks for everything!
I keep Vital Wheat Gluten in stock (buy it from bulk suppliers so it’s cheaper) and add it to my all-purpose flour when making breads (that is when I’m not using flour that I grind myself from hard white wheat). I never think to buy bread flour and stores charge more for it, the Vital Wheat Gluten adds an extra punch of gluten that works great.
Keep up the good work, your journey with yeast breads has been interesting.
Drew, I love what you do, and I don’t think using bread flour was ‘cheating’ at all. However, it doesn’t seem fair to direct all this negativity towards Jehan. It was a difference of opinion, and when you run a blog with public commenting, you have to accept that there will be good with bad.
Peggy, I just wrote and then deleted a long response to your comment. I decided it wouldn’t serve any purpose to reiterate my point, so I’ll just say this: When I publish anything, I do accept that I will get both positive and negative feedback. And when someone posts a comment on my blog, they should be prepared to have me respond back to them.
Okay, at first, well at first I was definitely thinking you had every right to say what you said, I’m big on picking the right ingredient to begin with not trying to compensate for “not taking the time” to chose the correct product. (Although you can catch me using vinegar in milk in a pinch ‘cuz I live thirty minutes from the store (that’s an hour to chase an ingredient)) But mostly I was thinking, “sheesh I sure got here late to swing in with an extra punch and fold.” But then I got to the last comment and your response and I gotta say yeah! Yeah!! I totally agree with what you are saying in that last comment. A person can make comments all they want on my blog, criticizing my technique on farming or raising kids or whatever I am talking about, even my spelling, but ya better know your stuff ‘cuz if you can comment, I can post right back and with the same sentiment as the comment!
I don’t think you are really talking to the person who left the comment as much as you are talking to your consistent readers when you attempt to straighten out garbage information. I have yet to pick up a book or article about bread written by someone who makes good bread and have them say that selective ingredients are a crutch and that it just takes good kneading. That is hooey! Proper kneading is important but so are proper ingredients.
Keep having sensitive nerves, ‘cuz the type of misinformation that this “teacher” was handing out is poo. (can I say poo on a kitchen blog or should I step outside?)
Oh by the way the protein content is slightly variable depending on things like growing conditions etc. But for the most part they are really close for all hard wheat whether red or white, winter or spring, and the nearly the same for all soft red or white.
Ohio State http://ohioline.osu.edu/agf-fact/0146.html has the best sheet on the different wheats I have come across so far. Except that it is missing hard white wheat. hard to tell how a of “bread flour” stacks up but you can find specialty shops where you can get the specific types of wheat flours.
Here is an interesting tidbit “Protein content is a key specification for wheat and flour purchasers since it is related to many processing properties, such as water absorption and gluten strength. Protein content also can be related to finished-product attributes, such as texture and appearance. Low protein content is desired for crisp or tender products, such as snacks or cakes. High protein content is desired for products with chewy texture, such as pan bread and hearth bread.
Bakers use protein content results to anticipate water absorption and dough development time for processes and products, because higher protein content usually requires more water and a longer mixing time to achieve optimum dough consistency.”
Association of Cereal Chemists, 10th Edition. 2000. St. Paul, MN.
Okay, I’m done, I think. Looking forward to more of your good bread posts!
Well, of course you cheat. I mean, I don’t see you raising and slaughtering your own cows for the corned beef. CHEATER.
(Yes, people, OF COURSE I am joking.)
Anyway, I am ALL about the crutches. But bread flour? Not a crutch. Just ask the myriad bakers in my MiL’s family, who would be more than happy to lecture about proper ingredients and technique.
Oh, and I recently had a visit from a vegetarian on my site who seemed, um, less than thrilled about our raising our own meat. He wasn’t overtly critical, so I have not yet responded, but if he comments again with any criticisms of people who dare raise and then eat fuzzy, cute animals, you can bet he’ll be getting a carefully reasoned, slightly profane response featuring lots of caps.